Apples for an eruv (Eruvin 29a)
Rava challenged his student who asked how many apples you need for an eruv by asking him back how you could use apples for an eruv at all. What was Rava talking about, why shouldn't you be able to use apples for an eruv? The Yosef Daas section of the kollel iyun hadaf site quotes three answers to this question (I saw the Artscroll in the footnotes also quotes the same three answers):
1. Rava knew you could but he was just challenging the student to find a proof (from Tos on 27)
2. The question wasn't about regular apples but about wild apples that aren't normally eaten (quoted in the Rashba)
3. Rava held that you can't use things that aren't normally eaten as part of a meal for eruv. So you could use vegetables, meat, breat, and even salad dressing but not fruit (the answer the Rashba likes).
On a related topic I have a question on today's daf but I couldn't find anyone who discusses it leading me to believe that I'm just misunderstanding something. The gemara says that Rav said "v'chein l'eruv" on some tannaic statement about maaser ani. Rashi explains the gemara's question that the mishna and the braisa don't disagree with each other at all so what's the difference on which one we put the statement. I don't understand that. It seems like there is a machlokes. The braisa says that the shiur for peaches is 5, for esrog is 1 etc. and the mishna says the shiur for all fruit is the amount to sell and buy food for two meals. Are we saying that's the same shiur? Doesn't sound like it.
posted by David @ 9:40 AM
5 Comments:
I thought they must be the same shiur; it's assumed that the overriding principle is "2 meals worth", and all the more specific amounts are merely applications of this principle to specific foods.
- Sholom Fried
The overriding principle is that it must be two meals worth and we don't look at the value. I assumed that when the braisa said 5 peaches it's because that's the amount of peaches you'd eat at two meals. Why would Abba Shaul in the mishna look at how much you could sell the fruit for?
Just to clarify my last point. I don't have a problem with Abba Shaul looking at the value because he's talking about tzedaka but how could we extend that shiur to eruvin? Eruvin has nothing to do with value!
I saw that the Tur asks my question and says that Rav must not have been going on Abba Shaul's statement. I'm not thrillod about that answer because certainly in the beginning of the gemara we thought he was going on the whole braisa but I guess you could say that didn't include Abba Shaul's shita.
I sent this question to the kollel iyun hadaf and they responded:
The Gr"a in Sh'nos Eliyahu
(Pe'ah 8:5, Long Peirush) explains that Abba Shaul was referring to such fruits which do not serve as a dip, but also cannot be eaten as an entire meal. In such a case the only way they can serve for an Eiruv is if the value of the fruit is at least Four Issarim, enough to purchase two meals.
Clearly the Gr"a was bothered by your questions.
Incidently, the Rambam in Hilchos Matnas An'yim quotes the opinion of Abba Shaul, while in Hilchos Eiruvin he does not.
Thanks again.
Yehuda Landy
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