Tamei keilim are machshiv liquids l'hachshir?
Zeiri in the name of Rav Chanina says (17a) that Habozer l'gat is machshir, as a gezaira for the case of where the grapes are being put directly into tamei keilim. The "tumas haklee", Rashi explains, is "machshiv" the liquid to be "machshir", since the tumah and hechsher come "as one".
Can someone explain to be what this means? I don't understand the sevarah of why a context of "tumaso v'hechsero k'achas" is more likely to make a liquid be machshir l'tumah.
posted by Anonymous @ 1:22 PM
5 Comments:
R. Steinsaltz explains that when liquid is found in a kli tamei, it is as if the liquid is there meiritzono, that is, the owner wants it there. Put another way, liquid in a kli tamei is machshir as a matter of law.
Perhaps this rule is intended to avoid a possible mistake. Certainly, if someone leaves water in a kli intentionally before using it, that is, he does not dry it first, has demonstrated that he wants the moisture and that desire renders the water machshir. But if we were to say that water placed in a kli that is tamei is not machshir, perhaps one might believe that any water that is in a kli, even water one wants, is not machshir either.
Morrie, I'm not sure if that explanation really works with the gemara. You seem to be saying that the liquid in tamei keilim is machshir is only a gezeira. The gemara seems to imply that it's d'oraysa and B"S made a gezeira because of that case.
David G.,
I'm still thinking through your objection so this will not respond to that. However, I have another question to raise.
What if the grapes from which the moisture oozes are being picked to make raisins? Rashi D"H HaBotzer on 15a suggests that such moisture will never be machshir since it is not desired. Does the notion of "kli tamei choshev mashkeh" mean that the liquid is machshir even though the grapes are being picked to be turned into raisins? How is this consistent with the "Ki yutan" criterion that the liquid must be desired by the owner?
Morrie, the way I understand it, it doesn't matter what the grapes are picked for. If they're in a tamei kli then according to this opinion (which isn't brought down by the Rambam) the water is machshir whether you want it or not.
I think that your last question is the same as Sholom's original question. I don't really have a good answer but I'll tell you the way I understood it. The Torah tells us that in order for the mashkeh to be machshir it must be something that you wanted. Maybe that's because it has to be something chashuv. If water just falls from the sky but you have no interest in that water then that's not chashuv enough to be machshir. However, if it's in a tamei kli so the water is tamei. The tumah itself makes it chashuv whether you want it or not so it can now be machshir.
Rashi seems to say that it's not just that the tumah makes it choshuv, but that when the kli makes the liquid tamei, the kli is directing attention to and giving importance to the liquid. The kli acts upon the liquid and doesn't ignore it as worthless. In this way the kli is making the liquid chosuv.
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