Reb Yochanan says two cannot make Zimun
The Gemorah on 45b proves that Reb Yochanan must be the opinion that holds that two people do make Zimun. The proof is from the fact that one person can be yotzei with the benching of his friend and we infer from the language that if we were talking about Zimun it would not have used a terminology of yotzei because by zimun each person is actually saying it. Therefore it must be that the two are not making Zimun together. Rashi comments that the language is only coming to teach us that "a zimun is not required" because of the inference that can be made. The obvious question is: The gemorah is trying to prove that R. Yochanan holds that a zimun is not allowed with two people. Accoring the the way Rashi is learning there is no proof at all. Rashi is saying that the language only proves that its not required. Where to we see that its not allowed??? It may be that I am missing something!!
Also, the Gemorah mentions that women cannot be included in a Zimun with men because of priztus. What exactly is the pritzus? Why are women allowed to answer at a meal when men make a Zimun? Why isnt that pritzus?
posted by Anonymous @ 10:20 AM
2 Comments:
You wrote: "Gemorah mentions that women cannot be included in a Zimun with men because of priztus." The gemara never says that. It only says that women can't be included with avadim because of pritzus. It says nothing of them not being included with men in our gemara. The way I understood the gemara is that the pritzus is only with the avadim. The fact that women are not mitztarfos with men is for a different reason - Rabeinu Yonah says it's because "ein chaburoseihem naeh." The Mishna Brura quotes that reason also. If there are three men together with women, then the men should have a zimun and the women should answer (the Shulchan Aruch says in that case they are "chayavos l'zamen").If there are three slaves with women though then there should be no zimun with all of them because of pritzusa.
Your first question really bothered me (although I didn't notice the Rashi until you pointed it out). I figured the Tzlach would ask it since he asks almost every question that bothers me on the gemara. Sure enough he does.
He says that R' Yochanan is talking about a case of a boor and a talmid chacham. If two people were allowed to bench with a zimun then it be required for a boor who couldn't bench on his own to bench with a zimun when there are only two people. So the fact that in this case they are not required to bench with a zimun is proof that R' Yochanan holds in a normal case they are not allowed to bench.
My only problem with this pshat is ikur chaser min hasefer.
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