Rav Huna's bracha on pas haba b'kisnin
The gemara in Brachos on the top of 42a says that Rav Huna ate some pas haba b'kisnin thing "v'lo barich." Rav Nachman responded that he should have benched because he ate enough for a normal person to be koveia seuda. What does it mean v'lo barich?
My first reaction was just that it meant that he didn't bench but he did say al hamichya. I knew that was not pashut pshat though because until now whenever we said "lo barich" it meant that either there was no bracha acharona at all or there was only a Borei nefashos. However, I saw that some Rishonim (the Ritva and the Tzlach quotes the Rashba) learn that it means that he didn't bench but he did say al hamichya. The Tzlach and the Pnei Yehoshua though don't like this pshat.
The Pnei Yehoshua says that he didn't even say al hamichya because the bracha acharona on pas haba b'kisnin is borei nefashos as we said on 41b. That was a chidush to me because when I learned the gemara on 41b that said no bracha acharona on pas haba b'kisnin I understood it to mean only because you don't have a kezayis of the mezonos in there. However if you would have a kezayis then you'd definitely need at least an al hamichya. Apparently, the Rishonim understand the Rashi there to mean that there is no al hamichya at all (just a borei nefashos).
The Tzlach has a novel approach to the sugya although he says it's not pshat because nobody learned like that. He says that Rav Huna was a bal keri and a bal keri doesn't make brachos that only d'rabonon. So he didn't make any bracha at all because he felt that there was no benching so no chiyuv d'oraysa.
posted by David @ 8:11 AM
7 Comments:
The difficulty with the view that Rashi concludes that there is no bracha at all on pas kisnin is in the plain text of the Rashi D"H Pas Habaah B'Kisnin on 41b. Of course, Rashi explicitly characterizes pas kisnin as a pas of rice or millet which must be preceded by borei minei mezonot and followed by borei n'fashot. Indeed, if Rashi meant there was to be no bracha acharona at all because the pas kisnin was less than a k'zayit, why must he describe the ingredients of the pas of nuts, almonds and "maachalah muat" at all?
It would thus appear that the best way to understand Rashi is as the Rosh Yosef and the GRa understand it: al hamichya need be said following a pastry like pas kisnin only when the grain (of the five minei dagan) is a k'zayit. The reason that al hamichya is not made on pas kisnin is that it is mostly spice and nuts with a little grain -- maachalah muat.
This also explains the equation of the pas kisnin to rice and millet loaves which are not of the grain that requires al hamichya but are preceded by borei minei mexonot and are followed by borei n'fashot.
Morrie, which point were you going on in what I said. I never meant that there should be no bracha acharona on pas haba bkisnin. Just that it should be borei nefashos. As you said Rashi says this clearly that it's borei nefashos. When I first read it though I understood it to mean that you make a b"n only if you eat more than a kezayis of the food but less than a kezayis of mezonos. If you would eat more than a kezayis of mezonos though you'd definitely make al hamichya. However, the Pnei Yehoshua explains that you would still make b"n if you have more than a kezayis of mezonos b/c it's not the ikar.
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I was referring to the last sentence of the third paragraph of your post -- "Apparently, the Rishonim understand the Rashi there to mean that there is no bracha at all."
Re: the Pnei Yehoshua you write in your comment "the Pnei Yehoshua explains that you would still make b"n if you have more than a kezayis of mezonos b/c it's not the ikar." Is this how he explains the Rashi? It seems to me that according to Rashi, if there is more than a k'zayit of grain in the pas kisnin, one must say mesonot. Otherwise, there is no reason for Rashi to point out that pas kisnin is made of various non-grain ingredients and "maachalah muat."
Sorry. I meant that there is no al hamichya at all. You definitely say a borei nefashos. I'm going to edit the original post.
You are correct that according to Rashi you say mezonos. You do that even if there is less than a kezayis of grain in there. The P"Y is only discussing the bracha acharona. It could be that Rashi is pointing out that it's maachala muat relative to the other ingredients but even if you would eat a lot so that it's no muat on an absolute scale it's still muat relative to the other stuff so the b"a remains b"n.
Just an interesting note not sure if its legitimate or not but I was taught at a young age it is assor to wear close backward because it is koshe lshikcha- You will forget your learning i never understood until I saw todays daf with the story about bentching when he turned around his robe to rip kriyah again because he lost his Rabbi and no longer knew what to do about bentching until a grandfather came (Eliyahu Hanavi) and told them the din.Which i figure to be the source of this din.IF anyone could confirm or deny this it would be highly appreciated.
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