Ha B'Yachid Ha B'Tzibur
The Gemarah on the bottom of 29a, to resolve a Stirah between a Braisa that says Machzirin Oso for skipping Sheala in Birchas Hashanim with a Braisa that says one should just say it in Shomeah Tefilah, answers that a Yachid is Machzirin Oso, while Betzibur one doesn't go back because he can hear it from the Sheliach Tzibur. The Gemarrah rejects this answer, because the Braisa should have stated that he doesn't go back because he will hear it from the SHAT"Z, not, as it does state, because he will say it in Shomeah Tefilah.
The original Teritz was puzzling, how did the Gemarah imagine this Braisa meant "he will hear it from the SHAT"Z" when it clearly states "he can say it in Shomea Tefilah"?
This may be obvious, but I was thinking, after learning Daf 30b, that the Gemarah was answering as follows. The person davening Betzibur, if he skipped Sheala in Birchas Hashonim, should say it in Shomeah Tefilah and hear it from the SHAT"Z. Let me explain. On 30b, the Gemarah also answers "B'Tzibur Shanu", to explain the Braisa that states if one skipped Yaaleh Vyovoh he needn't repeat his Tefilah since he can say Yaaleh Veyovoh in the next Tefilah. The Gm' is saying the Braisa is referring to one who is davening B'Tzibur, since he will hear it from the SHAT"Z -V'Eecka Miktzatz Hazkorah (Rashi) - he needn't repeat Shmoneh Esrai. The same question from 29a can be asked, "The braisa should have stated that he doesn't go back because he will hear it from the SHAT"Z, not, as it does state, because he will say it in" the next Tefilah? Rashi seems to address this by explaining that what the individual will hear from the SHAT"Z is only part of the equation, the other component is that he will be saying Yaaleh Veyavoh in the next Tefilah; adding the two together allows the individual to not have to go back for Yaaleh Veyovo.
This explains the meaning of the Braisa on 30b; it states that "he need not go back because he will say in in the next Tefilah". This is true, but the Gemarah explains that it is only part of the remedy, "B"Tzibur Shanu" is the other, unstated, part. The same can be said on 29a, the Gm' answered "Ha B'Tzibur" to explain that if the Yachid is davening B'Tzibur, and will get a Miktzas Hazkarah, then saying it in Shomeah Tefilah will be effective . The two together do the trick.
The Teritz on 29b is rejected, possibly, because saying Sheala in Shomeah Tefilah is effective on its own since it is a tefilah (as Rashi explained earlier), and therefore is fully effective when said in Shomeah Tefilah. It doesn't require the hearing it from the SHAT"Z component. Relying on saying Yaaleh Vyovo in the next Tefilah, though, is not effective on its own. It needs also to hear it from the SHAT"Z. The Gemarah, therefore, doesn't ask the question on 30b that it asks on 29a.
posted by Anonymous @ 10:38 AM
2 Comments:
I don't think that was obvious at all but I like it. This answers another question that I had. When the gemara answered (in the hava amina) ha b'yachid ha b'tzibur, it answered it to explain why the R' Asi said that you didn't have to repeat shmone esrei if you forgot v'sen tal u'matar. That same braisa though said that you did have to repeat if you forgot mashiv haruach. If we say that R' Asi is talking about b'tzibur so then why do you have to repeat if you forget mashiv haruach and not v'sen tal u'matar? Based on your answer you could say that the gemara didn't mean that b'tzibur alone would do it but that together with shomeia tefila it would solve the problem. That won't work for mashiv haruach though because that can never be said during shomeia tefila.
Perhaps I misunderstand your point. As I understand what you are saying, it is that one need not repeat the amidah if one forgot ya'aleh v'yavo only if (1) he will recite ya'aleh v'yavo in the next succeeding amidah that he recites and (2) will hear the shliach tsibur repeat the amidah. If that is the case, however, why would he not have to repeat ya'aleh v'yavo at maariv?
It seems to me that what the baraita is getting at is this: one need not repeat the amidah if he forgot ya'aleh v'yavo since he will repeat it in the following recitation of the amidah. But even if he were to forget it in the next recitation (forgot at maariv, then forgot at shacharit), we are not concerned that he did not say ya'aleh v'yavo in the immediately following amidah, the one at shacharit, since the shliach tsibbur will recite it.
This, I think, explains why the gemara does not ask on 30b the question it did on 29a from the text of the baraita. What exempts the one who forgot from repetition is that ya'aleh v'yavo will be said at the next succeeding recitation of the amidah -- either he himself will say it or the shliach tsibbur will say it.
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