If it has scales does it necessarily have fins?
The Kollel Iyun Hadaf in the insights of the day on Chullin 66 said:
The Mishnah says that in order for a fish to be Kosher, it must have both fins and scales (as the Torah teaches in Vayikra 11:9). The Gemara quotes a Mishnah in Nidah (51b) that states that any fish that has scales also has fins, but some fish have fins and do not have scales. TOSFOS (DH Kol) explains that this is either a tradition that goes back to Adam ha'Rishon, or it is a Halachah l'Moshe mi'Sinai. Accordingly, the SHULCHAN ARUCH (YD 83:3) rules that if we find a piece of fish that has scales on it, we may assume with certainty that it came from a Kosher fish and it may be eaten.The Gemara asks that if we need to know only that a fish has scales in order to determine that it is Kosher, then the Torah should write only that a fish needs to have scales in order to be Kosher. The Gemara first suggests that the Torah writes "Senapir" in addition to "Kaskeses" in order to clarify to us what the word "Kaskeses" means. The Gemara rejects this suggestion, though, because we already know that "Kaskeses" means "scales" from a different verse, "v'Shiryon Kaskasim Hu Lovesh" -- "And he was wearing armor of scales" (Shmuel I 17:5).
The Ritva on our gemara (nidda 51b) though might understand it differently in his second pshat. He says that the Torah said fins to tell you that is one of the simanim that makes a fish kosher. The Mosad Harav Kook has two explanations of this pshat in the Ritva. One is that it's telling you that there might be a fish out there that does have scales without fins and that fish is not Kosher. The problem with that pshat is then what did the gemara mean when it says that the only reason both are listed is because of yagdil Torah v'yaadir? It's much more than that? The other pshat is that Tosafos is right that it cannot happen. No such creature exists that has scales but no fins. The Torah lists both because it's teaching you that the simanim are what make the fish kosher. It's not just a siman like you can tell it's kosher because it has these simanim. If that was it then the Torah wouldn't have bothered because just one of them is a siman. The point is that the Torah is telling you that it's more than a siman. It is what makes the fish kosher.
posted by David @ 1:44 PM
5 Comments:
But if the siman is what makes it kosher, why does the second siman need to be there? I'm not sure I'm following the logic.
(btw, I love this blog. It is very insightful.)
I once raised this issue at a shabbat meal and a family friend who is not dati informed me that there are actually mammals that have scales but no fins.
Without the Torah writing both requirements one
might have thought that these mammals are kosher therefore both needed to be stated.
Anonymous: That's how the Ritva would learn (according to one interpretation). The problem is a couple of things:
1. Tosafos says it's a halacha l'moshe misinai that there is no such fish.
2. Then what does the Gemara mean that the whole purpose is l'hagdil Torah v'yaadir? It's actually teaching us a halacha!
Therefore many Rishonim and Achronim understand the mishna to mean that there is no FISH that has scales but no fins. There are other water animals that might.
Aishel: Thanks for the compliment. Feel free to keep commenting on posts and if you have your own comments or questions you'd like posted just email them to adafaday@gmail.com.
Now to answer your question. We (or at least I) normally think of the Torah telling us that we can tell if a fish is Kosher if it has fins and scales. Similar to the fact that I can tell if food is Kosher when I go to the store if the package has a Kosher symbol on it. The fins and scales are just a sign that it's Kosher. So just like I gain nothing if there is a chaf k on the package in addition to there being an OU, I also gain nothing from the Torah telling me that fins and scales are a sign that it's Kosher. Bottom line is that when I'm fishing I need only look for the scales. Who cares about the fins.
The Ritva (or at least the footnote) understands this differently though. The fins and scales are what makes the fish Kosher. It's true that I only have to look for the scales but the Torah is teaching us how it works. It's not going to make any practical difference but yagdil Torah v'yaadir makes a lot more sense if you understand it this way because Torah is teaching us what makes it Kosher. It's a very subtle point and I can understand why you're not crazy about it.
Thanks, your analogy did make it clearer, but I still like the question more than the answer.
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